Build and Shoot

When I was playing island I noticed that after a while building stopped. When I was playing industry I noticed building was minimal.* (In fact the map switched to the next before anything notable was built.) Then I realized, that, if industry would have been on longer, it would probably be griefed like crazy. In fact it'd eventually kinda look like island was looking at the end.
Everybody including myself complains about griefing, and lack of building. But perhaps the "natural state" the battlefield is inclined to isn't one with lots of buildings. If you think about it: pinpoint and goon don't eventually get nazi-style humongous buildings. And even maps like classic gen and hallway eventually end up as if they were started as flat maps, but never completely flat.
What makes people stop building? And what makes people stop digging? Apparently there a certain point at which they stop.
My first thoughts: people want shelter, free passage, and overview. They will alter the terrain accordingly. After a while building doesn't pay off as much, and they stop building. (What does is it cost?) You could have a system where player blocks are far more stronger, or something, so building would have higher pay-off. Or you could make a map with for instance very good sniper positions which rely on a very weak foundation. (So building is more protecting what you have than creating something new).
My second thought: a map that is interesting and varied is complex. You don't want complex. You don't want the chance to be sniped in the back from 10 different locations. You don't want to choose between 30 different destinations, and still not be sure how you position yourself relative to the enemy. You want a sort of flat field where the enemy walks in the direction of your base, and you walk in the direction of the enemy's base. And you want some cover on the way. And better yet: if you stray a bit from your initial route, you don't have to rethink your tactics or the general direction you're watching out for. In short: even if people had super building powers, they'd still be inclined to do what is done today. In this case there would be little you could do alter the way people use the environment.
These are of course generalizations. I don't think it is a very pretty picture I describe, but can you relate? Any other thoughts/considerations? I kind of have this ideal picture where people build such complex structures that they become awesome 3D mazes. That's not happening What's your ideal? Also i get the feeling I'm repeating myself. Please correct me, if I did.

* If you don't know: industry has lots of buildings and structures. Island is pretty flat.

I dunno, I would disagree with your point about pinpoint.. buildings do get about as big as are as useful, and it's usually the team with the better defenses that does better overall.

I enjoy building, but I didn't spend much time on it when I first started playing. I think it's because it's harder to build useful structures fast without dying, or getting griefed. If there's someone as good as you trying to kill you while you're building, chances are they'll kill you before you build anything appreciable. But I will admit it is quite a lot of fun to snipe a crouched builder who's almost behind cover but not quite.

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe headshot does less damage when you're holding a block? But no, people won't like that. Maybe a small bonus for building? But then people'll just build useless stuff out of the way. I think short of wiping out all griefers, the best you can do is play babel and push when it comes out.

i agree with you, building isnt so worthwhile anymore and i know as i dont build anymore (although i do occasionally contribute with maintenance if im using cover)

They should buff the building aspect (exactly what jagex did the opposite of, buffing destruction) and make user placed blocks almost twice as strong. that'll help it

Interesting post.

Possible solutions:
- Remove auto-climb - Being able to quickly run over all sorts of terrain removes the need to build paths and tunnels, and cover for said paths.
- Strengthen player blocks - This would make tactical building a stronger strategy.
- Whitelist servers, GBL, auth system - Some method of removing griefers from the community would be a great help. A lot of people don't build simply because they know it's likely that someone on your own team will destroy it soon after.

rakiru wrote:

Interesting post.

Possible solutions:
- Remove auto-climb - Being able to quickly run over all sorts of terrain removes the need to build paths and tunnels, and cover for said paths.
- Strengthen player blocks - This would make tactical building a stronger strategy.
- Whitelist servers, GBL, auth system - Some method of removing griefers from the community would be a great help. A lot of people don't build simply because they know it's likely that someone on your own team will destroy it soon after.

Wow, awesome. I haven't seen someone with views like this in a long time.

Hell, even making all blocks stronger would probably do the trick. Block strength should definitely be a modable feature in Iceball (and i would guess it already is).

Why people aren't building :
1. To make a bunker with 4walls with 5x3 +roof you will need walls60+roof25 = 85blocks and its really irritating to go back to base for new blocks
2. A simple wall protects the same(99.9%) as a Bunker with roof and all that. Thats why Ben tough of adding mortars so that people start making reall bunkers.
3. After 10 minutes or less there are enough holes and random blocks to protect yourself ( to be reall you need just 2 blocks to find that are one on other...
4. As the building is higher and prettier it irritates the griefers more.
5. Tunneling is very usefull in real CTF fights but most people likes to run and shoot ...
6.Tunnels/Roads The auto-climb killed Tunneling and Roading . Before the hill was a hard to pass terrain , now you can climb it up without losing like 5% of your time ...

And there are much more things...

Vucgy wrote:

Why people aren't building :
1. To make a bunker with 4walls with 5x3 +roof you will need walls60+roof25 = 85blocks and its really irritating to go back to base for new blocks

I don't think I mentioned this in my first post but that's part of why it's a ton easier to build in groups, it just rarely happens except on hallway in the middle of nowhere. The only times I can think of cohesively working together to build something have been on babel or with friends..

rakiru wrote:

I
Possible solutions:
- Remove auto-climb - Being able to quickly run over all sorts of terrain removes the need to build paths and tunnels, and cover for said paths.
- Strengthen player blocks - This would make tactical building a stronger strategy.

We dont need to remove autoclimb, we simply need to slow it down. Slowing it down recreates the sluggishness caused by spamming space without having to murder your keyboard. But yeah otherwise these two points would help slightly. In addition maps also need to promote building/digging rather than simply placing a shit load of random prebuilts everywhere. Something else Ive been thinking of is adding TC style bases to ctf, to act as a form of forward spawn that restores blocks and health, as well as a spawn point(wouldnt work if someone from other team is within a certain range). This gives people to fight over a certain area, rather than simply avoiding it or building a random base that doesnt do shit. Kind of like what squads shouldve been doing rather than being used for spawn camping.

Fluttershy wrote:

rakiru wrote:

I
Possible solutions:
- Remove auto-climb - Being able to quickly run over all sorts of terrain removes the need to build paths and tunnels, and cover for said paths.
- Strengthen player blocks - This would make tactical building a stronger strategy.

We dont need to remove autoclimb, we simply need to slow it down. Slowing it down recreates the sluggishness caused by spamming space without having to murder your keyboard. But yeah otherwise these two points would help slightly. In addition maps also need to promote building/digging rather than simply placing a shit load of random prebuilts everywhere. Something else Ive been thinking of is adding TC style bases to ctf, to act as a form of forward spawn that restores blocks and health, as well as a spawn point(wouldnt work if someone from other team is within a certain range). This gives people to fight over a certain area, rather than simply avoiding it or building a random base that doesnt do shit. Kind of like what squads shouldve been doing rather than being used for spawn camping.

Slowing it down would probably be harder than removing it though (from AoS classic).

Another possibility would be a new gamemode akin to sourceforts, where you get X time to build on your half of the map (with a wall in the middle), then battle either for X time, until one team is totally dead, a score is reached, or whatever.

I myself like building pillboxes and stuff, and find it a shame that some people just don't realise the value of protecting your intel with a 6 block tall bunker (The bunker itself being 3-4 blocks tall, meaning a total of 9-10 blocks high to be honest) rather than just a big, fat block that the enemy will just cut down anyways or climb.

Although, sometimes people spend TOO much time building, and often end up making useless crap rather than stuff that helps the team. Once, a person went through a lot of time just to make a tank.. Which certainly didn't help us much.

And then there are times when people are too busy just RIPPING down all the buildings they see. You play a city map, and at least one teammate is gonna waste all his time cutting nearly every building he sees down. The same buildings that make for good firing positions and cover, too, which is a shame he doesn't see that. But then, these people clearly just like goofing off rather than helping the team.

And then there is the fact that most servers I play have a short time limit, so it's understandable why people don't waste time building forts. It's either try to cap a point, or die trying. If you want to defend, just use whatever craters you find as cover, forget building walls around your intel, because that cost time. One server I play goes on for several hours per map, which I like because everything I build STAYS, meaning I can use it again, or someone else can while I build another bunker.

Hell, in some situations, it's amazing what one can do with just a few blocks in the middle of a thick forest or a tall mountain. Unlike in the 1.0 AOS, Classic allow you to color your blocks, meaning a smart player can use camouflage to hide and ambush players before they can react. Got at least a dozen kills by hiding in a little bush I made in the middle of a bunch of trees. If you play it smart, no one will notice you unless they are in a big group.

I think if we had more servers that didn't end matches so damned quickly, people would build more.

When I play on ToW there is always plenty of building, some of the forts on ToW - Classicgen are incredible, literally teaming with both defenders and repairers

Considering this is trench warfare, simple is better, and in place where the ground is thick enough, building works quite well.

I remember someone once built a HUGE building on aloha pinpoint that stayed up for like 5 hours. Green won for like 50 times in a row and I got a 200/6 kdr.

I know it's possible. It's just that after a while even in myself I detect the urge to start plainly walking to the enemy without (extensive) building/tunneling.
I think a good point was made here: people don't cooperate much. It's impossible to build a big fortress on your own, when it's targeted by the enemies. There is much less risk of losing your structure, if you cooperate. Maybe that's the "cost" people are avoiding: the risk of losing all their work. And griefers come into this equation too. They're the opposite of helpful teammates. So better communication (standard voice chat?), or a selection of people would improve things.
Auto-climb is an interesting point as well. But I only know versions which had it.

When I play on ToW there is always plenty of building

I don't think there is a European server with ToW :-/

People playing this type of game(competitive shooter) in a pub server always tend towards a strategy with high immediate rewards. There are no points to earn by building, it will never be reflected in your personal KDR. The individual strategy to get a high ratio is the same as most shooters of this type - find a spot where people aren't looking, and wait around to snipe them. Hence snipers are always looked down upon as the least helpful players. Building can improve sniping, but it's a subtle process, and you aren't scored on how successful your structure is, so the motivations around structures in this game are automatically biased towards the instant gratification of destruction.

And, if we assume most players are just ignorant, not stupid - "I got a high score, I must be doing well " - then it's not really their fault for being unhelpful.

But if we know that structures have impact, maybe we should rate structure performance?

During play the builder could get an assist point when a shooter on their team makes a kill standing on, under, or beside a block they placed or dug(not grief digging, only map default or enemy, and not your own blocks). This might cause a new form of griefing where people swap out existing structures one block at a time to steal the points, but if that happens, the builder is at least free to keep adding more instead of worrying about another kid collapsing the structure.

If we wanted to COMPLETELY focus the mechanic around the player structures, we could remove standard K/D, at least for some game modes, and go to a system where you only get "offense" and "defense" points - defense as described above, and offense by killing defenders when they are in a defensive position(i.e. around their team's structures) or by doing objectives. No going out near mid-map and sniping into the no-man's land. That won't get you points - killing enemy builders will, and focusing on builders naturally inclines you to also go for the objectives. Changes to player shape and speed, weapon balance, etc. would complement this approach and make structure building benefit the defenders more than it does now.

Implementing this gameplay would need some player education, but I think Iceball is up to the task of trying it - it could pop up useful hints or whatever's needed. It would be experimental at best in 0.75 since people would still look at the default scoreboard and judge everything based on that - a lesson we learned a long while ago.