SMG.

[rakiru]

Jeeze, why the hell what they use some recursive thing like that? adds overhead with absolutely no gain. I mean making the bullets go in a cone would be better.

Because derp. There are some interesting ideas about the best way to calculate shotgun damage somewhere, I think in the early pages of the Iceball thread. One is to have a cone of damage and give a percentage of the max damage based on the percentage of that slice of the cone the target fills.

[Sonarpulse]

...I was agreeing with you that the AoS algorithm was bad, especially if it doesn't do partial damage.

[rakiru]

What...? I know you were...

[Sonarpulse]

We agree you said

The amount of spread isn't the main problem with the AoS shotgun that makes it a luck-based thing though - it's the spread algorithm is terrible. Rather than making each pellet spread randomly around where you're aiming, they spread randomly around the previous pellet, meaning the first pellet goes somewhere near where you aim, the next goes somewhere near where that one went, and so on, which, in the worst case, can result in most of your shot going nowhere near where you aim.

I thought this sounded overly complex AND inefficient, for no gain.
I am not sure what you point was in the following post. Does AoS currently take into account how many of those bullets hit you, vindicating it's one-bullet-at-a-time algorithm? Does AoS not do that, but iceball might?
If AoS does do that, I was unaware, and that would merit a more complex algorithm. If it doesn't do that and just checks if any of those bullets hit you and does the same damage regardless, the method you said it does use still sounds bad.

[Reproba]

The problem with the SMG is it is too accurate at long ranges and becomes something of an assault rifle. Otherwise, it works completely fine and adds variety to the game that otherwise would not exist. Some ways of controlling for this might be to introduce higher muzzle climb, a smaller magazine, and a larger angle of bullet spray. Ideally, popping off single shots for distance fighting would be possible, but full-blown automatic would quickly go all over the place.

In lieu of the ww1 theme, it is worth considering that SMGs were originally conceived to deal with trench combat in the first place. I don't see why they should be removed as long as they be made less effective at overpowering rifles at range

[Handles]

SMG is addmittidely overpowered. It's accurate at long ranges and has a reasonable amount of damage per hit. The recoil is in my oppinion, to little. Because a semi pro gamer can easily learn to compensate for it within minutes.

All that said i think the SMG is an important part of the game and provides a deeper lever of stratege for all players.

[rakiru]

We agree you said

The amount of spread isn't the main problem with the AoS shotgun that makes it a luck-based thing though - it's the spread algorithm is terrible. Rather than making each pellet spread randomly around where you're aiming, they spread randomly around the previous pellet, meaning the first pellet goes somewhere near where you aim, the next goes somewhere near where that one went, and so on, which, in the worst case, can result in most of your shot going nowhere near where you aim.

I thought this sounded overly complex AND inefficient, for no gain.
I am not sure what you point was in the following post. Does AoS currently take into account how many of those bullets hit you, vindicating it's one-bullet-at-a-time algorithm? Does AoS not do that, but iceball might?
If AoS does do that, I was unaware, and that would merit a more complex algorithm. If it doesn't do that and just checks if any of those bullets hit you and does the same damage regardless, the method you said it does use still sounds bad.

I think each pellet counts, so if two of them hit you, it counts as being shot twice, but I could be wrong, GreaseMonkey should be able to clarify any of the details though, or perhaps someone who actually uses the shotgun could say whether I'm right or wrong here.
Also, GreaseMonkey wrote this page, which you may be interested in.

Also, building on the last two posts, the current method of recoil on the SMG makes it easy to compensate for.

[Sonarpulse]

Very interesting. Thanks for the link rakiru!

[TheSifodias]

Well... its been 100 votes... Final verdict time?

[Articsledder]

The shotgun is actually quite useful in close range I find, while the algorithm is crap if it had a slightly better rate of fire then it would be totally viable on non-flat maps. Just dig a short tunnel up to the enemy base and hide around in foxholes. I find the shotgun is actually quite efficient in Goon Haven if there is enough crap in the middle, and you stay under cover from rifle wielders.

[H@nkthet@nk]

Yeah... about that shotgun if you get the drop on people by being incredibly sneaky it works great at medium range and if you are lucky long... but I might just be some kind of lucky wizard though... As for the riffle it is fine I think that the decreased accuracy makes up for the seeming lack of recoil, which the accuracy being due to recoil. As for the SMG... yeah that is a whole can of worms I don't even want to open... but lets do it anyway! It needs to be less accurate than the riffle at long range other than that yeah it kind of works out.

[Lemmy]

I'm new to the forum, but have been playing AoS for just under a year now. I took a brief hiatus after a recent hard drive crash, but I'm back and I'd like to contribute to this discussion.

A little comparison and contrast:

SMG
The real MP-5 is a select fire SMG (submachine gun) typically equipped with a 30 round magazine (not a clip, there is a difference) firing a 9mm parabellum pistol cartridge at roughly 800 rounds a minute. The effective range is around 200 meters in semi auto (For those that don't know, the definition of "effective range" varies, but the US Army defines Maximum Effective Range as "the greatest distance at which a soldier may be expected to deliver a target hit"). Submachine guns are close quarters weapons that are typically difficult to control whilst firing full auto.

The game SMG is (was?) roughly modeled after the MP-5. It has the same magazine capacity, but a much lower rate of fire (550 rounds per minute).

My game Submachine gun suggestions are as follows:
Lower the head damage....maybe to 50% or lower
Maintain current magazine capacity
increase reload time
No semi auto fire capability, and increase the full auto rate of fire to around 800 - 900 rounds a minute.
lower the effective range to a 25 block distance, with a spread algorithim and decreased damage beyond this range.
Drastically increase muzzle rise / visible recoil (this will make target reaquisition more challenging)



Rifle:
The real M-14 Rifle is a select fire .308 caliber battle rifle equipped with a 20 round magazine. The rate of fire is around 700 rounds a minute. The effective range is 800 meters in semi auto. It is easily a 1 MOA (minute of angle) rifle capable of putting 5 rounds in a 1 inch group at 100 yards.

The game rifle is roughly modeled after the M-14. It has a smaller magazine capacity (10 rounds), and a much lower rate of fire (120 rounds per minute).

My game rifle suggestions are as follows:
head damage at 100%
increase magazine capacity to 20 rounds
increase reload time
increase recoil
100% accuracy out to an 800 block distance, with a spread algorithim and decreased damage beyond this range.
eliminate full auto capability. Only one round per click.


Shotgun:
The real Remington model 870 is a pump action shotgun, typically 12 gauge with an 8 round tubular magazine. The rate of fire is completely user controlled. Accuracy and shot pattern would be dependent on barrel length, choke size, and ammunition type.

The game shotgun is roughly modeled after the 870, and has a 6 round capacity with a rate of fire at 60 rounds per minute.

My game shotgun suggestions are as follows:
increase magazine capacity to 8 rounds
maintain current rate of fire
increase recoil animation
eliminate the ability to "put a bead" on someone in "zoom mode" until after a fresh shell is pumped into the chamber.
make the maximum effective range 25 blocks, but have 100% head damage within this range
...and for the love of all things holy make the BB pattern tighter, and expand outward from the point of aim. There is no reason why the pellets should head off in a direction other than where you aim. It doesn't work that way in real life and it shouldn't in game.


There is absolutely no reason why the accuracy of any weapon has to be "nerfed" in order to maintain gameplay balance. As far as I know, variables such as atmospheric conditions (other than the fog effect), MOA, ammunition types, and weapon wear and tear are not factors in this game, so maintaining balance can be done through playing around with the rate of fire, damage models, hit box size, fog distance, and maximum effective ranges.

Other posters have mentioned assault rifles. The SMG is not an assault rifle, but one could easily be modeled. Personally I would rather have a SAW / LMG (squad automatic weapon / light machine gun) similar to the BAR. You could easily make a BAR by making the current rifle full auto only.

[Vucgy]

@ Lemmy

For SMG
-your suggestions are okey just that headshot should be 50% not less

For Semi
-"increase magazine capacity to 20 rounds" What 20 ! Maybe 50 or 100 *Sarcasm*?
-"100% accuracy out to an 800 block distance, with a spread algorithim and decreased damage beyond this range.
eliminate full auto capability. Only one round per click." The accuracy thing is okey but 1 bullet per Click would mean that you can fire like 10 bullets in a second "ROF can variate up to the player" Menaing you can kill a soldier in like 0.3second with body or Limb shoots making it power-fuller then a SMG and Shotty at close mid and long range , that is really a absurd ""balance""idea .

For Shotgun
-"...and for the love of all things holy make the BB pattern tighter, and expand outward from the point of aim. There is no reason why the pellets should head off in a direction other than where you aim. It doesn't work that way in real life and it shouldn't in game. " Yes I used once a Shotty and it seems its firing In random Directions What is a total Idiotic idea , And just as you said it must be changed.

[CommieBuffalo]

@Lemmy

Balance >>>> Realism. Some realism is okay but if every game was completely realistic it wouldn't be fun.

[GreaseMonkey]

Well... its been 100 votes... Final verdict time?

Yeah sure OK. Admins, mind locking the poll if possible?

FINAL RESULT (at 107 votes)
35% said the SMG made the game better (37/107)
40% said the SMG made the game worse (43/107)
25% said the SMG made the game about the same (27/107)

More analysis when I can be bothered / when my arms aren't in agony / when I've had some sleep. I'll take a look at the posts and see if I can get a slightly more in-depth look as to what people mean by "better" and "worse".

But yeah, at face value, it's fairly close.