Build and Shoot

Alright, time to break my silence on this matter. I've been playing AoS for quite a bit now, though I've never really been involved in forum discussion.

Well, that changes today. Because I am disappointed. Once again, JAGEX has failed to understand what the community really wanted. Their decision-making skills were already flawed, of course. I mean, they basically thought it was a good idea to buy an IP, chuck all the elements that made the IP great, and then create a worse game barely reminiscent of that IP.

And now, after much trouble, tons of abuse towards the community, and downright ignorance of the problem, they promised a solution.

But that solution is probably worse than all of those actions mentioned COMBINED.

It entails this: Not a restoration of the gameplay of 0.75, as well as the gameplay of Ben's planned additions, but a total backdate to 0.4 - 0.7. None of the cooler features were retained, and none of the awesome additions like rocket launchers and stationary turrets were added like Ben had planned. They just left the bare minimum in this mode, meant to basically placate the anger towards JAGEX over the changes, and nothing more. This would have been OK if it was merely part of a larger, more comprehensive update, but that's it. That is all JAGEX has planned so far, at least to my knowledge. As such, I still won't be buying the game at all, and classic mode does not change my opinion of the game.

What happened? Did you guys not understand that when people wanted the content of the old AoS, at least some meant 0.75? How many people honestly wanted a total backdate to such a immensely distant point? Why remove rifles and shotguns when they too were a part of Ben's game? Not even the numerous gamemodes of 0.75 make a return. CTF, Babel, and Arena are all exempt from the updates. And still no word on private servers, custom maps, or anything else remotely wanted by the community.

I don't know whether this is the opinion of most people or if this is just mine, but I am vehemently opposed to JAGEX and what they have done to Ace of Spades. JAGEX has done the bare minimum in releasing this update, and the bare minimum should not be tolerated. The community deserves much better. It deserves the game they fell in love with and watched develop into something truly amazing. They deserve the real Ace of Spades, and thankfully, Buildandshoot has kept it alive so that people can know what once was. Until JAGEX can understand that, I will never even acknowledge JAGEX's game as Ace of Spades. It does not deserve to even be associated with Ben Aksoy's work, and unfortunately, this does not look like it will change anytime soon.

So there you have it. Feel free to be critical of pretty much everything I just said. I just wanted it off my chest. Keep in mind, this is a critique of just the update logs I've seen posted so far. I know what 0.4 - 0.7 played like though, so I have a good idea of what this "classic mode" entails. If conditions change, so will my opinion accordingly. But for now, this is all I can say about the matter.

UPDATE LOG LINK
http://www.aceofspades.com/forums/showt ... h-January"

EDIT: Changed the title to make the topic clearer.

wow, good rant but jagex and 1.0 discussions go in the AoS 1.x General Discussion. You brought up what most of the community has been feeling even the classic staff I am sure, don't worry though we still have a ton of ideas and new maps to make.

jdrew wrote:

wow, good rant but jagex and 1.0 discussions go in the AoS 1.x General Discussion. You brought up what most of the community has been feeling even the classic staff I am sure, don't worry though we still have a ton of ideas and new maps to make.

And thank heavens for that. Buildandshoot has restored some of my faith in humanity and the strength of the community. Really, if JAGEX couldn't destroy the community, nothing can.

The update was a step in the right direction (or at least the Classic Mode was)... but nothing more than a step. They still have a long way to travel. If they are smart, the foot that gives private servers will be used for the next step in the right direction if they chose to follow it.

I personally feel backdating to a date that long ago was a smart decision.

0.75 is great, but I think Jagex was going for a WWI feel. The older versions cater to this a bit better. I personally am excited to see how they will develop it further. Honestly I think if Ben had kept developing 0.75 it would have ended up as something similar to 1.0 though not the exact same (how in the heck did Jagex get jetpacks and prefabs... how in the heck).

There are numerous people from the old, old community working with Jagex to help give direction for the classic mode.

HoboHob wrote:

I personally feel backdating to a date that long ago was a smart decision.

0.75 is great, but I think Jagex was going for a WWI feel. The older versions cater to this a bit better. I personally am excited to see how they will develop it further. Honestly I think if Ben had kept developing 0.75 it would have ended up as something similar to 1.0 though not the exact same (how in the heck did Jagex get jetpacks and prefabs... how in the heck).

There are numerous people from the old, old community working with Jagex to help give direction for the classic mode.

You have some good points about fitting the WWI theme a bit better, and you are entitled to that opinion like I am entitled to mine. I really just don't see why one opinion needs to be favored over the other. Why can't both modes exist? And if a 0.75 remake is in the works, why not include that in the update. That does seem like something important to mention if it is being developed.

Another point, stationary machine guns were a part of World War I, as were tanks to an extent towards the later years. Also, there were TONS of mortar strikes. The war was, after all, largely spent waiting out those shellings in trenches. That's one of the main reasons I find JAGEX's exclusion of those elements odd if this a WWI mode. I know mortar strikes were a mod (and unbalanced in the right hands), but there are ways to fix that, like making mortars available through slow firing artillery that requires multiple players and tons of time to load and fire, and take impossible amounts of time to move. Turrets could be one per player per game, and could have a high setup and reload time. Hopefully these measures would keep it balanced, but even I admit it would be impossible to make the perfectly game. Those features would at least keep the battlefield diverse though, and could possibly provide an added layer of strategy.

Its only WW1 in name, the primary and only reason Jagex is making "ww1" mode is to try to recreate the earlier versions to help quell anger from the old community. To go back to what many consider a golden age and then add tanks/motars etc would be counterproductive and would pretty much invalidate the entire game mode.

Just curious as I dont own the game, did Jagex do a good job with WW1 mode?

Fluttershy wrote:

Its only WW1 in name, the primary and only reason Jagex is making "ww1" mode is to try to recreate the earlier versions to help quell anger from the old community. To go back to what many consider a golden age and then add tanks/motars etc would be counterproductive and would pretty much invalidate the entire game mode.

Just curious as I dont own the game, did Jagex do a good job with WW1 mode?

Well, I didn't directly suggest tanks, I just mentioned them. Honestly, I didn't want JAGEX to stick entirely to earlier versions but respect the spirit of the game, and make the planned additions that Ben had been working on. It'd be nice if they added some features like tanks, but I can understand objections. Perhaps some of those features can be spun into a "Strategic" mode or WWII, if that becomes a reality. The point is, any new mode is better than what JAGEX released as 1.0. That was a dark day in AoS history...

I really do want the planned additions though. Again, stationary turrets and rocket launchers were confirmed for the game before JAGEX took over, and mortars were an existing mod on a ton of servers. So if those things made their way into this version, I wouldn't mind since they held to the original design of the game.

And to me, the game started to pick up towards 0.75, which was the "golden age" in my eyes. JAGEX's update seems to return the game to its most basic state. For example, it's like if Minecraft was reverted back to its alpha stage just to be redeveloped. I played earlier versions, which were fun in their own right, but the later updates started to introduce variety to the battlefield and represented a natural, organic progression. Much of the problems that existed with 1.0 stemmed from the changes being too massive, too soon, and made without forethought or respect for the original game. To me, it seems that hasn't changed if JAGEX is moving WWI to a point that far back in development.

Perhaps there is hope though, If WWII is "Ben's 0.75 and beyond", JAGEX can potentially redeem themselves. I'm concerned that no progress or information about that mode has been made available to the public though, and I am still aware of the chance that at any moment JAGEX can take a step backwards. Only time can really tell how this pans out.

NES2 wrote:

I mean, they basically thought it was a good idea to buy an IP, chuck all the elements that made the IP great, and then create a worse game barely reminiscent of that IP.

Don't use buzzwords if you don't know what they mean.

NES2 wrote:

It entails this: Not a restoration of the gameplay of 0.75, as well as the gameplay of Ben's planned additions, but a total backdate to 0.4 - 0.7. None of the cooler features were retained

Many would argue that the game before the inclusion of the SMG AND Shotgun is much better than afterwards. I started playing during 0.58, very close to the update that the shotgun was added. After playing all this time, though, I realized that the game would probably be much better off with a "backdate" to a version before the SMG while retaining bug fixes and features such as click-and-drag, which is exactly what Jagex did (although there may be some kinks to work out), and honestly I have to say it is the best decision they have made thus far, considering the original version 1.0 was downright horrible. Your entire review is based on the premise that Jagex should have cloned 0.75 while adding a turret and rocket launcher. Perhaps those will get added in the future, bu honestly I hope they don't as they're liable to screw that up and ruin classic mode. As for game modes, hopefully those will be added in the future, but for now I am happy with what Jagex delivered in Classic mode.

NES2 wrote:

And to me, the game started to pick up towards 0.75, which was the "golden age" in my eyes.

It may be the "golden age" for you, but it was really an utter mess. Pyspades' current build had networking issues, rifle spread is a joke, the SMG is overpowered, and the Shotgun is next to worthless. 0.75 was the end of the decline of Ace of Spades Beta if you asked me, although 0.76 did rectify some of those issues (unfortunately no one plays 0.76 RC 10).

Also, if you doubt Jagex's judgment on the future of Classic AoS, you can rest assured that people who played the original versions, such as TheGrandmaster, HeyJD, and Reuben, will be advising Jagex on the direction the game really should be taking. Whether or not Jagex will be listening to them (although I hope they would, considering the advisorship is an official forum position) is yet to be seen, but it's something.

USABxBOOYO wrote:

NES2 wrote:

I mean, they basically thought it was a good idea to buy an IP, chuck all the elements that made the IP great, and then create a worse game barely reminiscent of that IP.

Don't use buzzwords if you don't know what they mean.

Your other arguments are OK. This was a worded harshly though.

To my knowledge, I used the word correctly. Ace of Spades is an intellectual property, as both the concept of the game and the game itself are now owned by JAGEX. Just like music is an "IP", a creative work protected by law, so is Ace of Spades, a game created by Ben Aksoy and now owned by JAGEX. But the definition of "intellectual property" is not the topic of this thread, so we can talk about this more over PM if you find it absolutely necessary to clear this up.

That aside, I feel JAGEX went about it the wrong way. If they are going to create two classic modes, I feel the most recent iteration of the game before 1.0 should have been used first. If there is a demand for a just-rifle game, that's fine, put it in a separate mode. And I hope there are still two seperate modes planned. If there is only one "Classic" mode, then JAGEX has failed entirely.

And I will admit, they could ruin rocket launchers and stationary turrets if they don't figure out a balanced solution for those. Considering how they messed up 1.0, some may not be inclined to let them attempt to carry out adding that part of the game. But if they really have matured, then I could give them a little leeway. I mean, that's not a drastic departure, again, from what was in and planned for the original game.

As for me liking 0.75, I have had different experiences. The SMG was powerful, but it had recoil, medium range, and lesser accuracy than the rifle. Skilled players could easily take out inexperienced SMG users. And the Shotgun was weak since most maps are very wide and open, but it was good for combat inside buildings and structures at close range, acting as a more specialized weapon. You can view 0.75 as flawed, but it wasn't a total mess. After all, we've already seen "a mess".

As for JAGEX's listening skills, I'm somewhat pessimistic. I mean, they did screw over Ben when he attempted to have an input towards the game's creation. This probably seems to contradict my belief that JAGEX can get rocket launchers and stationary turrets right, but I believe they can do it if they have they have the right guidance, listen to the community leaders as to how those would function, and rigorously balance those features before the release. That's the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is that things take a turn for the worse and JAGEX shuts down the dialogue once more. When that happens, all hope is lost for a good Ace of Spades.

NES2 wrote:

To my knowledge, I used the word correctly. Ace of Spades is an intellectual property, as both the concept of the game and the game itself are now owned by JAGEX. Just like music is an "IP", a creative work protected by law, so is Ace of Spades, a game created by Ben Aksoy and now owned by JAGEX.

Oh, I thought you meant IP as in Internet Protocol, I've never heard someone refer to intellectual property as an IP before. Sorry

I agree with the other things you mentioned in the paragraphs above. When I was a Global Moderator and the Jagex staff "talked" to us staff before, they often pretended as if they were going to listen to our advice but never really did; going ahead and demoting us all on the new forums, alienating the old community from 1.0, and making a great mess out of things. At this point, I am at a crossroads as to whether the advisorship is just an appeasement method or if they're actually going to listen. For now, I feel inclined that Jagex will listen. If they do, then everything will probably turn out alright and Jagex won't make nearly as many mistakes with the Classic version as if they do not listen to the advisors.

Time will tell.

Just to clarify my involvement as a Classic Mode Development Advisor - if I feel I'm being treated as a puppet, I'll step down from the role. After visiting Jagex HQ though, the general feeling was that they do want classic mode as a community development build - something that has community input but based on the earlier versions of the game.

Remember that you'll always have 0.75 here and it's not unreasonable that perhaps a "WW2" mode could be made that's faster paced - they are open to suggestions. The current classic mode is pretty much 0.76 but without 3rd party servers/mods/SMG/Shotgun. There's a fair way to go to get Classic Mode back to the golden era where everything was slower and more tactical - the 'run and gun' of 0.75 is not what is being aimed for. However, this doesn't mean that some of its features won't appear in some form, one example being click and drag building, which infact after much community voice about it has had a recticle introduced and the placement mechanism altered so that it's the same as .75 and is much easier to use (previously it'd guess diagonals and such, but now it works by placement on faces of blocks rather than having too many options).

My priority in this involvement is to get everything back to the core mechanics, the gameplay that's more like what it used to be, then really start looking and debating over what new ideas could fit the gameplay. From there, the CMDAs will hopefully be able to pass that to Jagex and get it in a testing build.

"If there is a demand for a just-rifle game, that's fine, put it in a separate mode".. that is what they have done.
To me the "lets add rocket launchers!" "lets add MGs!" annoys me as simple statements. Those two things would immensely alter gameplay - so many things to consider.